tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22657443.post4332544535688782056..comments2023-12-31T03:18:37.403-06:00Comments on "E pur si muove!": More Trouble with Tasers: The BART Shooter SentencedLester Hunthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14746157071827337723noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22657443.post-3950982580470607642010-11-11T11:53:35.717-06:002010-11-11T11:53:35.717-06:00That makes perfect sense to me, but the sort of st...That makes perfect sense to me, but the sort of standard you describe here does not seem to justify use of a taser in circumstances of the BART shooting incident. (Actually, I just viewed the above video and did not previously realize that this is not the same video of the incident that I saw before -- the earlier one makes it clear that Grant is on his stomach and has his arms fully extended, straight, behind him -- not a position that enables formidable force on his part.) I'm hoping to post on this general issue again today some time.Lester Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14746157071827337723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22657443.post-37103457702802177782010-11-11T09:24:56.684-06:002010-11-11T09:24:56.684-06:00Nope, I'm not saying that at all. Whacking so...Nope, I'm not saying that at all. Whacking someone on the head with a night stick just because they haven't put their hands close enough together would obviously be excessive. In fact, my department forbade striking the head with any impact weapon (baton, flashlight, etc) except in deadly force situations. Heck, I arrested guys that <i>couldn't</i> get their hands all the way behind their back because they were so large... it required two or three sets of cuffs linked together to restrain them.<br /><br />What I am saying is if the suspect is passively resisting (e.g., arms clenched tightly to the front) and you aren't muscular enough, or don't have enough help, to force his arms behind his back to be cuffed, you aren't required to continue struggling in a futile and potentially dangerous situation that can turn from passive resistance to an attack in an instant. You typically make a split-second decision to escalate your tactics to the next level in order to get the guy into custody quickly with the least chance of injury to anyone. The longer the struggle continues the more likely someone is going to get hurt. These situations are very fluid and can go from passive resistance, to active/aggressive resistance, back to passive in the span of a few seconds.<br /><br />Obviously in the Grant incident there was a catastrophic failure in this process. Whether it was a problem with training, a problem with their policy on use of force escalation, confusion between Taser and pistol, a character flaw with the officer, a freak accident, or a combination of these, I don't know.<br /><br />I will bet this incident is going to be scrutinized, analyzed, and any lessons learned will be taught in police academies all over the country.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10206923154548164606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22657443.post-4061421087664939162010-11-09T13:58:56.444-06:002010-11-09T13:58:56.444-06:00Never been a cop or a hippie but I know that the u...Never been a cop or a hippie but I know that the use of a taser would be categorized as excessive force. The suspects was under control even if he was verbally not co-operating. Why the cuffs were not placed on this man when he had one hand behind his back, neck restrained, and an officer straddling his body has never been fully explained. The conversation caught on the cel video is equally interesting. I wondered if the sound was ever cleaned for a transcript. A witness is either shouting "he's not resisting" or "stop resisting".<br /><br />I thought the body language of the the back to the camera cop was telling too. IIRC, the rocking on feet side to side indicates a self-stimulating comforting gesture. He was just as shocked as the other witnesses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22657443.post-35911506381358115522010-11-08T18:47:28.933-06:002010-11-08T18:47:28.933-06:00So you are saying that if I am holding one hand to...So you are saying that if I am holding one hand too far from the other to be cuffed w/o the officer shoving my hands together, the officer may, instead of doing so, whack me on the head with a night stick? That doesn't sound right to me. As a former hippie, I recall that this can cause scalp wounds and copious bleeding.Lester Hunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14746157071827337723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22657443.post-61304425947908479592010-11-08T15:25:06.794-06:002010-11-08T15:25:06.794-06:00As a former police officer, having been in many si...As a former police officer, having been in many similar situations (that all ended much differently), I would suggest that there's not nearly enough detail in the video to see what exactly Grant was doing, although he doesn’t appear to have been actively or aggressively resisting.<br /><br />My comments must be prefaced with my stating that the Taser did not come along as a law-enforcement tool until after I left the profession, so I don’t have first-hand experience with the devices. That said, a couple of things do come to mind:<br /><br />First, when the police have determined that an individual is under arrest (this is a legal condition, not a physical condition), having told him that he is under arrest, and having told him to place his hands behind his back to be cuffed, if the suspect refuses it is not required that the arresting officer(s) engage in a wrestling match with the arrestee. This is not Popeye and Bluto engaging in an arm-wrestling contest to see who is the strongest and who will win. The arrestee <b>will</b> be taken into custody so that he may be brought before a judge -- he can go the easy way or the hard way, but he is going. If the arrestee refuses to obey and passively resists, in most jurisdictions the officers are allowed to use "pain compliance" or "soft empty hand techniques" (application of pressure points) that don't cause permanent injury, but that hopefully get the attention of the arrestee and encourage his cooperation. Typically the "use of force continuum" proscribes that an officer may use one level of force higher than what the suspect is using; again, this is not about playing fair or going mano-a-mano. If the resistance by the suspect becomes more active and aggressive then the officers may escalate to "hard empty hand techniques", which include strikes to nerve bundles in an effort to stun, or to pepper spray or the baton. My understanding is that the Taser is considered at the same level of force that pepper spray is. I don’t know this department’s use of force policy, but it seems that the Taser wouldn’t have been called for in Grant’s case unless there were other elements involved that aren’t obvious from watching the video.<br /><br />Second, I think there may be a problem with the fact that some models of Tasers used by police departments look, and more importantly probably <i>feel</i>, too much like a service pistol. In a high-stress situation, one where “muscle memory” comes into play, I could certainly see an officer making a mistake and brandishing his service pistol thinking that it was his Taser.<br /><br />-SteveStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10206923154548164606noreply@blogger.com